Discussion:
Windows vs. Mac OS - What are we Missing?
(too old to reply)
Erik J. Barzeski
2002-07-30 13:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

We all (I think) use Macs. Yay for us. We have a bunch of advantages. Just
now I wrote an AppleScript - I still don't know of anything like this in
Windows (but I could be wrong: I haven't looked too hard either).

So that begs this question, then:

What does Windows have that we lack? Whether it's a software package to do a
certain thing or a core OS functionality. I'm asking outside of the realm of
VirtualPC.

In other words (the words of a certain fruit company's retail team, maybe),
what are the drawbacks of using Mac OS X. What must a Windows user give up
to get the many benefits Mac OS X provides? Let's keep the discussion to
10.2, if possible.

So, what can't/don't we (Macs and Mac Users) do?

Two to start:
1. games (we're still pretty far behind here)
2. USB 2 (not from Apple, anyway)

(Many of our former gaps are filled in, either from late third parties
(Palm) or Apple (USB printer sharing, wireless network sharing, etc.)).
--
Best wishes,
Erik J. Barzeski

"My girlfriend always laughs during sex -
no matter what she's reading." - Steve Jobs
###################################################################
Email: erik@(anything below) AIM: iacas

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darrell wilkins
2002-07-30 13:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
1. Websites that are designed with only the windows platform in mind.

2. Cross plug-in communication in the browser.
- I believe this is in the latest Mozilla beta though.

3. 3D Studio Max.
- I know we have Maya but it's not always a viable alterative. Most of the
PCers in our office would convert to Mac's if 3D studio was on it.

4. Decent accounting packages.
- All the big ones are Windows only.

5 Exchange server.
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
2. USB 2 (not from Apple, anyway)
There are third party options for USB 2 though. So we are not really missing
out.







cheers

darrell


- specialmoves

020 7278 7448
www.specialmoves.com
Alex Fuller
2002-07-30 14:27:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
Hi,
We all (I think) use Macs. Yay for us. We have a bunch of advantages. Just
now I wrote an AppleScript - I still don't know of anything like this in
Windows (but I could be wrong: I haven't looked too hard either).
What does Windows have that we lack? Whether it's a software package to do a
certain thing or a core OS functionality. I'm asking outside of the realm of
VirtualPC.
In other words (the words of a certain fruit company's retail team, maybe),
what are the drawbacks of using Mac OS X. What must a Windows user give up
to get the many benefits Mac OS X provides? Let's keep the discussion to
10.2, if possible.
So, what can't/don't we (Macs and Mac Users) do?
1. games (we're still pretty far behind here)
2. USB 2 (not from Apple, anyway)
Forget USB 2 since we have been able to get that from Orange Micro for ages,
and who wants it anyway.

As far as I am concerned, the only thing we're missing that we really can't
find a way round is... WinMX. If you can go and reverse engineer their
protocol and write a client, I'd pay a shareware fee for it. And *any* Mac
user's interface design/organisation has to be better than the one they came
up with.

Alex
Alex Fuller
2002-07-30 14:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrell wilkins
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
2. Cross plug-in communication in the browser.
- I believe this is in the latest Mozilla beta though.
This has been in Netscape always. The problem has been and remains IE. They
won't support LiveConnect for whatever reason, and they won't introduce
ActiveX for whatever reason (a good thing though). Why the IE team won't
just go with LiveConnect I don't know.

Alex
j o a r
2002-07-30 15:46:04 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, Jul 30, 2002, at 21:41 Europe/Stockholm, Erik J. Barzeski
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
1. games (we're still pretty far behind here)
2. USB 2 (not from Apple, anyway)
3. Good non-java peer-to-peer applications (We had the lead with
Hotline (not p2p, I know, but still...) a couple of years ago - what
happend?)

4. Marketshare (God, am I tired of having to explain my choice of OS)

5. Fast hardware (mainly CPU & memory subsystems - yes, we are _slow_)

6. A killer application (I mean a _real_ killer, like WYSIWYG desktop
publishing when the competition was still at the command line)

I think that this list would have been much longer a couple of years
ago - Apple makes great strides with Mac OS X! Yay!

j o a r
jason.kamen
2002-07-30 16:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
Ability to set a "standard".

jK
Matt Penna
2002-07-30 16:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
In other words (the words of a certain fruit company's retail team, maybe),
what are the drawbacks of using Mac OS X. What must a Windows user give up
to get the many benefits Mac OS X provides? Let's keep the discussion to
10.2, if possible.
So, what can't/don't we (Macs and Mac Users) do?
1. games (we're still pretty far behind here)
2. USB 2 (not from Apple, anyway)
(Many of our former gaps are filled in, either from late third parties
(Palm) or Apple (USB printer sharing, wireless network sharing, etc.)).
With MacOS X's ongoing improvement, I'd agree with your last statement - many of the former drawbacks of the Mac are simply no longer there.

I'd say the barriers for PC users to switch to the Mac are largely psychological. If we're talking about existing PC users looking at MacOS X as opposed to people who are entirely new to computers, then:

1. Familiarity

People are apprehensive about switching because they're comfortable with what they have and do not know what to expect from a Mac. The Switch campaign is well-targeted, I'd say.

However, this issue of familiarity works both ways. A lot of people who are familiar with how poorly Windows works are more than eager to find an alternative, so perhaps many PC users will be more eager to try MacOS X than anyone. (I know I was. :) I recall news stories from the release of the original iMac that reported a significant number of the purchasers were PC users, so this was true even before OS X was available.

2. Better performance

Macs have fallen behind PCs in terms of raw performance in several areas. For professional users and developers, depending on the nature of their work, this might be a problem.

However, having said that, I would also say that for at *least* 75% of the population, this is not relevant. When all you do is browse web sites, use e-mail and type letters, does it matter whether you have a 1GHz as opposed to a 2.5GHz processor?

As an aside, I would say that any performance I gained by using a PC that was "faster" than a Mac was eaten up by the time I wasted keeping the machine functioning. When I was a student doing C++ development on Windows 95, I reinstalled the operating system sometimes 3 times a week because the compiler, utility programs, and various other applications interacted in so many unexpected ways they quickly took out the OS.

3. More stuff for corporate users

This is a bit of a hodge-podge.

a) A good groupware server application akin to Exchange, along with appropriate client software, would work wonders for the Mac in terms of corporate adoption. Most places I've seen use Exchange server and Outlook and I know of no real alternatives. (Anyone else know of any?)

b) Does XServe support some kind of terminal services? This would also be a boon to some.

c) My previous workplace was full of scientists and engineers who used some fairly sophisticated and expensive design packages. Pro/Engineer, AutoCAD, Mathematica, etc. Getting more of these applications ported to MacOS would obviously be a good thing. (While Mathematica has a MacOS X native version, most of the other packages were available for Windows and UNIX, only. With MacOS X's UNIX foundation, perhaps ports will be a little less daunting.)

4. Viruses

You did ask for what people would have to give up in switching to a Mac... :)

That's about all I can come up with at the moment.

As a home computer, the Mac is already viable for a very large number of people; if you're not a gamer, then there's no drawback to the Mac. As far as I'm concerned, it is far superior to even a name-brand PC from Dell or Gateway, which are now made so cheaply that they're little more than junk. (Even if you build your own machines, finding good, reliable hardware in the PC world is becoming increasingly difficult - another reason I switched.)

For corporate use, however, they have a ways to go before they are seriously considered in many work environments. And they do have a lot of momentum to overcome, as well; there are not a lot of companies out there, at least in the US, that use Macs.

I do see Apple making good progress, however. Almost everything I've seen in the last year has been a step forward. Considering MacOS X is essentially a 1.0 release, I'd say they've done a spectacular job in a short period of time. 10.2 looks terrific, but I am just as interested in what comes afterwards.

Matt
--
Matt Penna ***@rit.edu
ICQ: 399825 Yahoo! Messenger: mdp1261 AIM: S0ba
"The trouble with computers, of course, is
that they're very sophisticated idiots." -Dr. Who
John Koenig
2002-07-30 16:37:02 UTC
Permalink
we're missing 65% of the cost of the computer from our bank
account... compared to comparable Wintel hardware...

However this, for some, is made up in the User Interface...

Though, paying more for computing slower is getting old... How long
with the usability argument be justification for being reamed by
Steve and Co? He needs VOLUME pretty badly.

Bring on the Pentium... time to put Motorola microelectronics and IBM
microelectronics "to bed" with the likes of Fairchild and other
pioneering companies...


--
Gérard Iglesias
2002-07-30 16:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
The capacity to be boring, I guess ;-)

Gerard
Alex Rice
2002-07-30 17:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack? Whether it's a software
package to do a
certain thing or a core OS functionality.
Windows developers have "Dance Monkey Boy" Steve Ballmer. So, who
wants to spice up WWDC with some psychotic gyrations ala Ballmer?
OK, I've never even been to WWDC and for all I know Apple has
it's own crazy corporate ego.

Seriously though something I really miss about Windows is having
ODBC connectivity to all kinds of different databases and being
able to use them from other apps like Access, Excel and others.
Windows manages ODBC connections at the OS level. There is a
control panel for it. I was even using ODBC connections from
Windows to MySQL running on Unix. Cool stuff that has no
equivalent in Mac OS.

Alex Rice <***@mindlube.com>
Mindlube Software
http://www.mindlube.com/
Erik J. Barzeski
2002-07-30 17:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Koenig
we're missing 65% of the cost of the computer from our bank
account... compared to comparable Wintel hardware...
However this, for some, is made up in the User Interface...
Though, paying more for computing slower is getting old... How long
with the usability argument be justification for being reamed by
Steve and Co? He needs VOLUME pretty badly.
Bring on the Pentium... time to put Motorola microelectronics and IBM
microelectronics "to bed" with the likes of Fairchild and other
pioneering companies...
If Motorola would let IBM use AltiVec, and IBM took over the research and
fabrication of the G4/G5, we'd have 2 GHz G5s by the end of next year.

And if they'd let them do it a year ago, we'd have 1.8 GHz G4s in volume
right now.

Of course, there's no way to back that up... But don't go blaming IBM.
They've been relatively silent on the G4 front because of AltiVec, and
because Motorola won't let it go (even though Apple is, what, 0.0000001%[1]
of their business?)

[1] I made that up too.
--
Kindest regards,
Erik J. Barzeski

I have no life. Do you think I could find one on Google?
###################################################################
Email: erik@(anything below) AIM: iacas

http://iacas.org http://weims.net
http://techstra.net http://barzeski.com
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http://freshlysqueezedsoftware.com http://applescriptcentral.com
###################################################################
Michael Maibaum
2002-07-30 19:45:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
Post by John Koenig
we're missing 65% of the cost of the computer from our bank
account... compared to comparable Wintel hardware...
However this, for some, is made up in the User Interface...
Though, paying more for computing slower is getting old... How long
with the usability argument be justification for being reamed by
Steve and Co? He needs VOLUME pretty badly.
Bring on the Pentium... time to put Motorola microelectronics and IBM
microelectronics "to bed" with the likes of Fairchild and other
pioneering companies...
If Motorola would let IBM use AltiVec, and IBM took over the research and
fabrication of the G4/G5, we'd have 2 GHz G5s by the end of next year.
Actually, I quite like Moto's research, it is just their fab that is,
how to say this delicately...crap.
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
And if they'd let them do it a year ago, we'd have 1.8 GHz G4s in volume
right now.
;) WISH.
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
Of course, there's no way to back that up... But don't go blaming IBM.
They've been relatively silent on the G4 front because of AltiVec, and
because Motorola won't let it go (even though Apple is, what, 0.0000001%[1]
of their business?)
well, 10-20% or something of there cpu sales. Whatever that is of there
total business (IIRC< means I might be wrong...)
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
[1] I made that up too.
heh

Michael

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LuKreme
2002-07-30 20:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
In other words (the words of a certain fruit company's retail team, maybe),
what are the drawbacks of using Mac OS X. What must a Windows user give up
to get the many benefits Mac OS X provides? Let's keep the discussion to
10.2, if possible.
The biggest thing, of course, is games. That and Access (not that
access is a good thing, but sometimes a necessary thing).

Video capture/ripping/encoding without a DV in is still pretty privative
on the Mac without spending LOTS of money. I know plenty of people
who "tape" their tv shows to VCD. Very easy process on a PC. Nigh
impossible on a Mac without Digital Video, and even then, MUCH slower.
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
1. games (we're still pretty far behind here)
2. USB 2 (not from Apple, anyway)
10.2 supports USB 2.0. Given the lack of compelling reasons to get USB
2.0 devices, and the many reasons NOT to, I don't think this is a drawback.
Nick Zitzmann
2002-07-30 21:05:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack? Whether it's a software
package to do a
certain thing or a core OS functionality. I'm asking outside of
the realm of
VirtualPC.
Here's one: DVD software.

For example, recently I watched "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone" on DVD. (Good movie, BTW.) The DVD package comes with a
second disc that includes a number of DVD extras. One of the
extras, when I selected it in the DVD player, told me to put the
disc into my computer's DVD drive to use the extra. So I put it
in my Mac's DVD-ROM drive. Nothing happened. I took a look at
the files on the disc - they were all Wintel programs, not a
single Mac program to be found. Aarrrrgh!

Out of all the DVD movies I've tried, all of the ones that have
computer-based extras include only extras for Windows. So how
can big DVD fans justify purchasing a Mac in this case,
especially now that Windows laptops can be used as portable DVD
players just like PowerBooks?

Come to think of it, I can't think of a single piece of Mac
software that comes on DVD, except for maybe Riven, and that was
years ago. Can anyone name one other than that?

Nick Zitzmann
ICQ: 22305512

Check out my software page: http://homepage.mac.com/nickzman/
Adrian Smith
2002-07-31 00:44:43 UTC
Permalink
Come to think of it, I can't think of a single piece of Mac software
that comes on DVD, except for maybe Riven, and that was years ago.
Can anyone name one other than that?
iDVD2
David Cake
2002-08-01 00:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Zitzmann
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack? Whether it's a software package to do a
certain thing or a core OS functionality. I'm asking outside of the realm of
VirtualPC.
Here's one: DVD software.
But the software you are talking about is just another way of
saying we are victims of market share. If macs were 50% of the
market, the DVDs would be sure to include Mac software - but we
aren't.
Cheers
David
steve harley
2002-08-01 00:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Come to think of it, I can't think of a single piece of Mac software
that comes on DVD, except for maybe Riven, and that was years ago.
Can anyone name one other than that?
off the top of my head:
July 2002 ADC distro
Encyclopedia Britannica
--
steve harley ***@paper-ape.com
darrell wilkins
2002-07-30 21:52:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
95% market share.



cheers

darrell


- specialmoves

020 7278 7448
www.specialmoves.com
Adrian Smith
2002-07-30 22:25:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
1. games (we're still pretty far behind here)
Only if there is a SPECIFIC game (or genre) that you want to play
that is only available on the PC. If you are just looking for a range
of excellent games to choose from there are more than enough to keep
you playing for a very long time.

Still, it would be nice if more of them could play multiplayer vs PCs.

Adrian
Alex Rice
2002-07-30 22:40:00 UTC
Permalink
http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/morefeatures.html
There have been some screenshots floating around that look very
similar to
Window's ODBC administration utilities.
Ooooh! And I thought that was just rumor (faked screen shots and
all that!) Cool!

Alex Rice <***@mindlube.com>
Mindlube Software
http://www.mindlube.com/
Zachery Bir
2002-07-30 23:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Why the IE team won't just go with LiveConnect I don't know.
You're kidding, right? "Embrace-and-Extend"?

Zac
Gene Steinberg
2002-07-31 00:18:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gérard Iglesias
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
The capacity to be boring, I guess ;-)
Gerard
Or, to paraphrase that old Windows commercial, who do you want to bore
today?



_ _ _ _
Peace,
Gene Steinberg
Author, "The Mac OS X Version Little Black Book Jaguar Edition"
http://www.macnightowl.com
Co-author, "Attack of the Rockoids"
http://www.rockoids.com
Contributing Editor, CNET
Correspondent, Gannett News Service
Michael Brewer
2002-07-31 00:21:03 UTC
Permalink
AFAIK ODBC will be in Jaguar and was in Classic Mac OS.
There is a control panel for it. I was even using ODBC connections from
Windows to MySQL running on Unix. Cool stuff that has no equivalent in
Mac OS.
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-07-31 02:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrell wilkins
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
1. Websites that are designed with only the windows platform in mind.
Like? Really? And why should we care? Just curious (because my web
experience is pretty much perfect at this point, with the occasional
aesthetics problems here and there. Mac OS X have solved most of my
previous concerns (namely, Java).
Post by darrell wilkins
3. 3D Studio Max.
- I know we have Maya but it's not always a viable alterative. Most of
the
PCers in our office would convert to Mac's if 3D studio was on it.
Oh, Max, probably the most pirated software on earth next to AutoCAD and
Office. I know that one (I better now, since I started my graphics work
in computers with Animator Pro and 3D Studio Release 1 :-)

But really, having Max on Mac OS X won't bring anything new to the
platform. Beyond Maya, we have two quite excellent animation packages:
LightWave and Cinema 4D. Really excellent, with thriving development and
user communities, massive amounts of plugins and fast development rate.
These two offer the same level (or more, IMHO) than Max
Post by darrell wilkins
4. Decent accounting packages.
- All the big ones are Windows only.
Yes.
Post by darrell wilkins
5 Exchange server.
Smbleh.
Post by darrell wilkins
There are third party options for USB 2 though. So we are not really
missing
out.
Screw USB 2. My magazine (through their VNULabs) did a head to head of
FireWire vs. USB 2. The numbers were amazing, with USB 2 loosing test
after test. USB 2 is the typical case of overhyped trash product of
Intel's PR arm, not of technical excellency. It's slow, it's
inconvenient, it sucks. I hope it fails big time and that Apple never
has to adopt it. In fact, as consumer digital cameras get their res
higher and higher and new storage methods appear (like the recent card
by Fuji and Olympus -8GBs by next year? same prices as current CF cards?
oh boy-), FireWire will replace USB 2 on the digital camera front (it
better be. Digital photography with iPhoto is _fun_ and _useful_, the
only downside being transfer rates, unless you have a notebook with PC
Card adapter).

j.
LuKreme
2002-07-31 12:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Screw USB 2. My magazine (through their VNULabs) did a head to head of
Firewire vs. USB 2. The numbers were amazing, with USB 2 loosing test
after test. USB 2 is the typical case of over hyped trash product of
Intel's PR arm, not of technical excellency. It's slow, it's
inconvenient, it sucks.
What's amusing about USB 2.0 is that it has trouble achieving HALF of
it's rated speed (480Mb/s). And, of course, if any USB 1.1 device gets
on the same bus the speed drops to 1.5Mb/s.

The only reason I have it is because the cheapest USB/Firewire combo
card I could find at the time was USB 2.0. Wee.
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-07-31 02:49:08 UTC
Permalink
For example, recently I watched "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone"
on DVD. (Good movie, BTW.)
It's amazing what people call a good movie these days.

j.
darrell wilkins
2002-07-31 03:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Like? Really? And why should we care? Just curious (because my web
experience is pretty much perfect at this point, with the occasional
aesthetics problems here and there. Mac OS X have solved most of my
previous concerns (namely, Java).
www.eagle-star.co.uk - try and sign up for car insurance for instance.

There are still many companies that are using Windows IE specific features
and don't give a shit about anyone else. Should we care, probably not, we
can just choose not to use their products. I'm just making the point that
the Windows platform has something that we don't . Sites targeted
specifically towards them.
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
But really, having Max on Mac OS X won't bring anything new to the
LightWave and Cinema 4D. Really excellent, with thriving development and
user communities, massive amounts of plugins and fast development rate.
These two offer the same level (or more, IMHO) than Max
I don't disagree with you with regards to Maya, Lightwave and Cinema 4D,
they are all excellent. But as it stands at the low to mid range of 3D
development Max is a defacto standard.

We have 3 P3 based people in this office that would switch to OS X straight
away if Max was available on it.

What would having Max on OS X bring to the platform? A great application and
yet one more reason to to buy a windows box. Is it likely to happen? No
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Screw USB 2.
I don't really care about USB2 either, but I don't think it would do any
harm if we had it as standard.




cheers

darrell


- specialmoves

020 7278 7448
www.specialmoves.com
Alex Fuller
2002-07-31 03:35:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
For example, recently I watched "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone"
on DVD. (Good movie, BTW.)
It's amazing what people call a good movie these days.
Agreed. What's more they called it a good book. What's the world coming
to...?

Alex
Matt
2002-07-31 03:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Maibaum
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
If Motorola would let IBM use AltiVec, and IBM took over the research
and
fabrication of the G4/G5, we'd have 2 GHz G5s by the end of next year.
Actually, I quite like Moto's research, it is just their fab that is,
how to say this delicately...crap.
Is it really?

Or are we "armchair CEOs" in receipt of actual information?

M
Michael Maibaum
2002-07-31 07:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Post by Michael Maibaum
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
If Motorola would let IBM use AltiVec, and IBM took over the research and
fabrication of the G4/G5, we'd have 2 GHz G5s by the end of next year.
Actually, I quite like Moto's research, it is just their fab that is,
how to say this delicately...crap.
Is it really?
Or are we "armchair CEOs" in receipt of actual information?
Well, put it this way, Moto has always done pretty well with developing
ideas for chips and always taken a long time to put them into practical
production. For many years they have had problems with there fab,
although I do understand it is improving in recent times. As for the
info, it's out there....

Michael
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Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-07-31 04:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Post by Michael Maibaum
Actually, I quite like Moto's research, it is just their fab that is,
how to say this delicately...crap.
Is it really?
Or are we "armchair CEOs" in receipt of actual information?
Isn't this the ArmchairCEO Talk list, Larry?

Wait. Are you Larry???? [1]

j.

[1] From...
Elisabet Frazer
2002-07-31 04:51:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by LuKreme
Given the lack of compelling reasons to get USB
2.0 devices, and the many reasons NOT to,
What are the reasons not to. I'm almost buying the cheap Orange Micro
now, so please let me know. Should I buy a USB 1.1 card instead?

in the groove
wondergirl.elisabet

"If you never had the bad times how would you know you had the good times"
LuKreme
2002-07-31 23:43:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elisabet Frazer
Post by LuKreme
Given the lack of compelling reasons to get USB
2.0 devices, and the many reasons NOT to,
What are the reasons not to.
1> It's not nearly as fast as it claims. It's not nearly as fast as
HALF it's claims.

2> It is backwards compatible, in that it becomes a USB 1.1 bus if any
USB 1.1 device is attached. So, if you want to use your joystick and
your 32x USB 2.0 writer -- well, that 32X is going to be considerably
slower than 32X.

3> It's Intel. 'nuff said.
Post by Elisabet Frazer
I'm almost buying the cheap Orange Micro
now, so please let me know. Should I buy a USB 1.1 card instead?
If it's cheaper I would.
Elisabet Frazer
2002-07-31 04:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
But really, having Max on Mac OS X won't bring anything new to the
platform.
Perhaps it will bring 3D Studio Max to OS X?
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
LightWave and Cinema 4D.
And people knowing the ins and outs in 3D Studio Max care exactly how
much?


in the groove
wondergirl.elisabet

"If you never had the bad times how would you know you had the good times"
Erik J. Barzeski
2002-07-31 05:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by jason.kamen
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
Ability to set a "standard".
USB? 802.11b? Firewire? QuickTime? ZeroConf.

Etc. I disagree here. The other answers people have given are all pretty
good so far...
--
Kindest regards,
Erik J. Barzeski

HANDLE WITH CARE: This email contains small electrically-charged
particles moving at speeds of over 500,000,000 miles per hour.
###################################################################
Email: erik@(anything below) AIM: iacas

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http://techstra.net http://barzeski.com
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http://freshlysqueezedsoftware.com http://applescriptcentral.com
###################################################################
Erik J. Barzeski
2002-07-31 05:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Screw USB 2. My magazine (through their VNULabs) did a head to head of
FireWire vs. USB 2. The numbers were amazing, with USB 2 loosing test
after test. USB 2 is the typical case of overhyped trash product of
Intel's PR arm, not of technical excellency. It's slow, it's
inconvenient, it sucks. I hope it fails big time and that Apple never
has to adopt it. In fact, as consumer digital cameras get their res
higher and higher and new storage methods appear (like the recent card
by Fuji and Olympus -8GBs by next year? same prices as current CF cards?
oh boy-), FireWire will replace USB 2 on the digital camera front (it
better be. Digital photography with iPhoto is _fun_ and _useful_, the
only downside being transfer rates, unless you have a notebook with PC
Card adapter).
The first thing I did when I got a CompactFlash camera (CoolPix 995) was to
get a Firewire CF card reader. It alone has saved me hours, literally, over
USB. Not that I couldn't have gone and done something else in those hours,
but you know what I mean... :)
--
Best wishes,
Erik J. Barzeski

Home is where you hang your @
###################################################################
Email: erik@(anything below) AIM: iacas

http://iacas.org http://weims.net
http://techstra.net http://barzeski.com
http://cocoadevcentral.com http://soundsetcentral.com
http://freshlysqueezedsoftware.com http://applescriptcentral.com
###################################################################
Todd R. Warfel
2002-07-31 06:48:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Penna
a) A good groupware server application akin to Exchange, along with
appropriate client software, would work wonders for the Mac in terms of
corporate adoption. Most places I've seen use Exchange server and
Outlook and I know of no real alternatives. (Anyone else know of any?)
Corporate Time. There's both a Win and MacOS X client and the shared
calendars are Web-based.

Cheers!

Todd R. Warfel

_//message first [method second]
.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.
_//user experience guru
Information architecture
Interaction design
Usability analysis
[P] (607) 339-9640
[E] ***@mk27.com
[w] http://www.mk27.com
.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-07-31 07:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Post by Nick Zitzmann
For example, recently I watched "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone" on DVD. (Good movie, BTW.)
It's amazing what people call a good movie these days.
It is equally amazing how intolerant people can be about other people's
opinion. Men like women, women like men... so whose opinion is the
'correct' one?
Hmmm, Derek, is that from the Playskool's Book of Wussie Arguments or
did it come from the back of a Burger King's Kids Pack?

Fortunately for everybody, there are certain fairly established and
minimum values, developed through a few thousand years of history, which
provide with enough rules and standards to judge something for what it
really is (in this case, yet another case of marketing crap-o-la). You
know, the kind of arguments -or gut feeling if you will- that separate
"Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" (the movie) from "Casablanca" or
"Some like it hot" or even "LOTR". Or the kind of arguments that make
the difference between "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" (the
book) from "Through the Looking Glass" or "The Sword in the Stone" or
"The Hobbit".

It has _nothing_ to do with people's opinions, though.

j.
LuKreme
2002-07-31 20:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
It has _nothing_ to do with people's opinions, though.
Give up now Jesús. The current crop of inane stupidity in the US,
instilled by the defective Duh-blic schools, is that EVERY opinion, no
matter how ill formed, uninformed, or downright psychotic, is somehow
equal and valid.

Further proof of the inevitable demise of the American Empire.
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-07-31 07:30:06 UTC
Permalink
I wonder if anyone could build a central WebObjects application (or
whatever) and have iCal plug to it... I mean, it should be pretty much
straightforward, no? Or does anyone know if iCal Publish-n-subscribe is
one-way only?

I could imagine someone with their iCal multiple calendars, publishing a
"Public" calendar with everyone else in the company and then accessing
and having writing privileges to a "Group" calendar somewhere.

Of course, this is so simple that probably is not there yet. Or maybe
Apple is also planning to piggy-back all these new iApps into Mac OS X
Server 10.2.5 or something. It would certainly make a _lot_ of sense to
do so. You provide the iApps and the proApps to the client and then the
software on the servers to make those iApps and proApps even more
useful. Drive sells, integrated solution. Mucho money.

j.
Post by Todd R. Warfel
Post by Matt Penna
a) A good groupware server application akin to Exchange, along with
appropriate client software, would work wonders for the Mac in terms
of corporate adoption. Most places I've seen use Exchange server and
Outlook and I know of no real alternatives. (Anyone else know of any?)
Corporate Time. There's both a Win and MacOS X client and the shared
calendars are Web-based.
darrell wilkins
2002-07-31 08:26:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Of course, this is so simple that probably is not there yet. Or maybe
Apple is also planning to piggy-back all these new iApps into Mac OS X
Server 10.2.5 or something. It would certainly make a _lot_ of sense to
do so.
This would indeed be an excellent idea. As long as there was a client for
Widows too. Shared calendaring is no good in an organisation unless everyone
can share it.

If give away the iApps on OS X and charge for Windows was their strategy
then making a server app would be a great idea. I doubt that it is though.



cheers

darrell


- specialmoves

020 7278 7448
www.specialmoves.com
darrell wilkins
2002-07-31 08:50:00 UTC
Permalink
The web calendaring covers that aspect.
If that were true then there would be no need for Outlook on a Mac. You
could just use the Web interface there. Fact is people want to use
applications for this sort of thing.



cheers

darrell


- specialmoves

020 7278 7448
www.specialmoves.com
darrell wilkins
2002-07-31 10:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Maybe because the web implementations of these things suck?
Just a question.
Also they don't store local files. If you don't have a connection to your
sever, you can't see a thing. Not much good if your on the move with your
laptop.

With an application you can have a local copy of what's on the server that
is synced up when you reconnect to it.

In theory this could be achieved within a browser with some form of plug-in,
but if your going to do that you might as well just make the client
application xPlatform.

So tell me again why Apple dumped yellow box for windows? Looking more and
more silly by the day if you ask me.


cheers

darrell


- specialmoves

020 7278 7448
www.specialmoves.com
Derek Chesterfield
2002-07-31 15:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Post by Nick Zitzmann
For example, recently I watched "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone" on DVD. (Good movie, BTW.)
It's amazing what people call a good movie these days.
It is equally amazing how intolerant people can be about other
people's opinion. Men like women, women like men... so whose opinion
is the 'correct' one?
Hmmm, Derek, is that from the Playskool's Book of Wussie Arguments or
did it come from the back of a Burger King's Kids Pack?
Fortunately for everybody, there are certain fairly established and
minimum values, developed through a few thousand years of history,
which provide with enough rules and standards to judge something for
what it really is (in this case, yet another case of marketing
crap-o-la). You know, the kind of arguments -or gut feeling if you
will- that separate "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" (the
movie) from "Casablanca" or "Some like it hot" or even "LOTR". Or the
kind of arguments that make the difference between "Harry Potter and
the Sorcerer's Stone" (the book) from "Through the Looking Glass" or
"The Sword in the Stone" or "The Hobbit".
It has _nothing_ to do with people's opinions, though.
Strange. You just expressed an opinion about opinions.
LuKreme
2002-07-31 20:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Chesterfield
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Post by Nick Zitzmann
For example, recently I watched "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone" on DVD. (Good movie, BTW.)
It's amazing what people call a good movie these days.
It is equally amazing how intolerant people can be about other
people's opinion. Men like women, women like men... so whose opinion
is the 'correct' one?
Hmmm, Derek, is that from the Playskool's Book of Wussie Arguments or
did it come from the back of a Burger King's Kids Pack?
Fortunately for everybody, there are certain fairly established and
minimum values, developed through a few thousand years of history,
which provide with enough rules and standards to judge something for
what it really is (in this case, yet another case of marketing
crap-o-la). You know, the kind of arguments -or gut feeling if you
will- that separate "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" (the
movie) from "Casablanca" or "Some like it hot" or even "LOTR". Or the
kind of arguments that make the difference between "Harry Potter and
the Sorcerer's Stone" (the book) from "Through the Looking Glass" or
"The Sword in the Stone" or "The Hobbit".
It has _nothing_ to do with people's opinions, though.
Strange. You just expressed an opinion about opinions.
¿See Jesús? I TOLD you.
Gibbons Burke
2002-07-31 23:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Chesterfield
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
For example, recently I watched "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" on DVD. (Good movie, BTW.)
It's amazing what people call a good movie these days.
It is equally amazing how intolerant people can be about other people's opinion. Men like women, women like men... so whose opinion is the 'correct' one?
Hmmm, Derek, is that from the Playskool's Book of Wussie Arguments or did it come from the back of a Burger King's Kids Pack?
Fortunately for everybody, there are certain fairly established and minimum values, developed through a few thousand years of history, which provide with enough rules and standards to judge something for what it really is (in this case, yet another case of marketing crap-o-la). You know, the kind of arguments -or gut feeling if you will- that separate "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" (the movie) from "Casablanca" or "Some like it hot" or even "LOTR". Or the kind of arguments that make the difference between "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" (the book) from "Through the Looking Glass" or "The Sword in the Stone" or "The Hobbit".
It has _nothing_ to do with people's opinions, though.
Strange. You just expressed an opinion about opinions.
And you just expressed an opinion of an opinion of an opinion.

Gibbons

Anything you can do, I can do meta.
Michael Brewer
2002-07-31 17:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Erik, I think you missed his point. He put standard in quotes. Microsoft
"standards" aren't standards. Idiots refer to them as standards because
Microsoft has a choke hold on the market.

Word documents are a "standard."
FireWire is a standard.
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
Post by jason.kamen
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
Ability to set a "standard".
USB? 802.11b? Firewire? QuickTime? ZeroConf.
Etc. I disagree here. The other answers people have given are all pretty
good so far...
Erik J. Barzeski
2002-07-31 19:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Gotcha.
Post by Michael Brewer
Erik, I think you missed his point. He put standard in quotes. Microsoft
"standards" aren't standards. Idiots refer to them as standards because
Microsoft has a choke hold on the market.
Word documents are a "standard."
FireWire is a standard.
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
Post by jason.kamen
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
Ability to set a "standard".
USB? 802.11b? Firewire? QuickTime? ZeroConf.
Etc. I disagree here. The other answers people have given are all pretty
good so far...
--
Best wishes,
Erik J. Barzeski

The best things are not always the most popular.
The most popular things are not always the best.
###################################################################
Email: erik@(anything below) AIM: iacas

http://iacas.org http://weims.net
http://techstra.net http://barzeski.com
http://cocoadevcentral.com http://soundsetcentral.com
http://freshlysqueezedsoftware.com http://applescriptcentral.com
###################################################################
Bill Coleman
2002-07-31 23:13:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
I wonder if anyone could build a central WebObjects application (or
whatever) and have iCal plug to it...
Two words: Web Service.

(ooo! I got goosebumps....)



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: ***@mac.com
Quote: "Boot, you transistorized tormentor! Boot!"
-- Archibald Asparagus, VeggieTales
JHSJ
2002-07-31 23:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by LuKreme
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
It has _nothing_ to do with people's opinions, though.
Give up now Jesús. The current crop of inane stupidity in the US,
instilled by the defective Duh-blic schools, is that EVERY opinion, no
matter how ill formed, uninformed, or downright psychotic, is somehow
equal and valid.
If you examine the history of ideas, you'll find that that sentiment
first arose and took shape in the work of Sextus Empiricus who, in spite
of his uniquely American name, was most likely Greek (possibly Italian).

The next really prominent statement of the idea that everyone's opinion
is equal came via (skipping the medievals for brevity) David Hume.
Hmmm...noticing a pattern?

Then we find Nietzsche affirming a similar
"there-is-no-truth-so-everyone's-opinion-is-equally-valid" sentiment in
the 19th century.

Then Heidegger, Sartre, Derrida...

Americans are finally "catching up" with the Europeans on this issue,
I'm sure.
It certainly isn't "our" invention.

Jeff
Post by LuKreme
Further proof of the inevitable demise of the American Empire.
_______________________________________________
MacOSX-talk mailing list
http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk
LuKreme
2002-08-01 00:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by JHSJ
Americans are finally "catching up" with the Europeans on this issue,
I'm sure. It certainly isn't "our" invention.
I didn't say we INVENTED it. We just embraced it as our own while
everyone else in the world realised it was moronic to say "Well, Bruce
thinks Winger is the best music ever written and Mark think Mozart is
better, but Mark has to respect Bruce's opinion because it's just as
valid."

Find a non-American who thinks that Bruce's opinion is "valid."
Bill Coleman
2002-07-31 23:21:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Zitzmann
For example, recently I watched "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone" on DVD. (Good movie, BTW.) The DVD package comes with a
second disc that includes a number of DVD extras. One of the
extras, when I selected it in the DVD player, told me to put the
disc into my computer's DVD drive to use the extra. So I put it
in my Mac's DVD-ROM drive. Nothing happened. I took a look at
the files on the disc - they were all Wintel programs, not a
single Mac program to be found. Aarrrrgh!
Ditto.

My kids were very excited to get the Harry Potter movie. They, too,
wanted to access the cool stuff on the second DVD.

My G4/400 (Sawtooth) is the only machine in the house with a DVD drive.

You cannot believe the look of sad disappointment that resulted when we
realised the "extras" were Windows-only.

Phooey.



Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: ***@mac.com
Quote: "Boot, you transistorized tormentor! Boot!"
-- Archibald Asparagus, VeggieTales
Michael Brewer
2002-07-31 23:39:38 UTC
Permalink
Which ones can't?
Post by Adrian Smith
Still, it would be nice if more of them could play multiplayer vs PCs.
Adrian Smith
2002-08-01 00:35:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Brewer
Which ones can't?
Post by Adrian Smith
Still, it would be nice if more of them could play multiplayer vs PCs.
I'm not entirely sure because I have not bought them but I don't
think anything that uses the Microsoft networking libraries (part of
Direct X?) have cross-platform network games,

for example,

Age of Empires I/II (and others using those engines?)
Stronghold ?
Heroes of Might and Magic III ?

and I'm sure there are more :)

(not to mention those games where the networking patches on the Mac
version tend to lag behind the PC version)

Adrian
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-07-31 23:48:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrell wilkins
The web calendaring covers that aspect.
If that were true then there would be no need for Outlook on a Mac. You
could just use the Web interface there. Fact is people want to use
applications for this sort of thing.
Maybe because the web implementations of these things suck?

Just a question.

j.
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-07-31 23:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrell wilkins
Shared calendaring is no good in an organisation unless everyone
can share it.
The web calendaring covers that aspect.

j.
darrell wilkins
2002-08-01 00:16:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Zitzmann
For example, recently I watched "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone" on DVD. (Good movie, BTW.) The DVD package comes with a
second disc that includes a number of DVD extras. One of the
extras, when I selected it in the DVD player, told me to put the
disc into my computer's DVD drive to use the extra. So I put it
in my Mac's DVD-ROM drive. Nothing happened. I took a look at
the files on the disc - they were all Wintel programs, not a
single Mac program to be found. Aarrrrgh!
This is pure laziness or in the Harry Potter case fuckwittedness on the
developers part. It's really easy to make this sort of cross platform
content. In the Harry potter case the DVD is just acting like a storage
mechanism the application that runs on Windows is called InterActual Player
and it's a quite dreadful interface around an DVD player.

There is nothing that couldn't be done much better in Director and it would
automatically be cross platform. Another example of the short-sightedness of
content providers.





cheers

darrell


- specialmoves

020 7278 7448
www.specialmoves.com
Michael Brewer
2002-08-01 00:20:42 UTC
Permalink
Easy. Almost all of the extras intended for use on a computer suck.

Extras accessable through the DVD-ROM drives of computers should use Web
standards or "standards" to present the content so that it would be more
widely cross-platform compatible.

By standards, I mean XHTML, CSS, VRML, MPEG4. By "standards," I mean Flash
and Shockwave.

Certainly a lot of DVDs are produced on Macs, don't the creative people
have some say in the tools used to provide the content?
Post by Nick Zitzmann
Out of all the DVD movies I've tried, all of the ones that have
computer-based extras include only extras for Windows. So how can big DVD
fans justify purchasing a Mac in this case, especially now that Windows
laptops can be used as portable DVD players just like PowerBooks?
Michael Brewer
2002-08-01 00:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, that'll be great. All computers should run Pentiums. That way none
of them will be slower than the others. Of course, Intel will slow its
development cycle and we'll have slower computers n years down the road
than if we had stuck it out with PowerPC.
Post by John Koenig
Bring on the Pentium... time to put Motorola microelectronics and IBM
microelectronics "to bed" with the likes of Fairchild and other
pioneering companies...
Matt
2002-08-01 00:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Fuller
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Post by Nick Zitzmann
For example, recently I watched "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone"
on DVD. (Good movie, BTW.)
It's amazing what people call a good movie these days.
Agreed. What's more they called it a good book. What's the world coming
to...?
Windows is derivative and a resounding success. (ref: Macintosh, by
Apple Computer)
Same goes with Harry Potter (ref: Books of Magic, by DC Comics.)

The only thing that is penalised these days is originality.

M



--
Crucible Design - purveyors of *sweet* roleplaying games
The 23rd Letter, SpaceNinjaCyberCrisis XDO, Zombi
http://www.crucibledesign.com/
jason.kamen
2002-08-01 00:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Rice
Seriously though something I really miss about Windows is having
ODBC connectivity to all kinds of different databases and being
able to use them from other apps like Access, Excel and others.
Windows manages ODBC connections at the OS level. There is a
control panel for it. I was even using ODBC connections from
Windows to MySQL running on Unix. Cool stuff that has no
equivalent in Mac OS.
Would this interest you?

<http://www.thinksecret.com/cgi-bin/pic.cgi?i=/archives/jaguarnewupdates2ima
ges/odbcadministrator.gif&p=jaguarnewupdates2>

jK
Ian Ragsdale
2002-08-01 01:00:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Rice
Seriously though something I really miss about Windows is having
ODBC connectivity to all kinds of different databases and being
able to use them from other apps like Access, Excel and others.
Windows manages ODBC connections at the OS level. There is a
control panel for it. I was even using ODBC connections from
Windows to MySQL running on Unix. Cool stuff that has no
equivalent in Mac OS.
This is another one of Jaguar's features - search for ODBC here:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/morefeatures.html

There have been some screenshots floating around that look very similar to
Window's ODBC administration utilities.

If you can't wait that long, iODBC from http://www.iodbc.org/ is supposed to
work under OS X, and there are open source drivers out there for a number of
databases. (MyODBC for mysql, freetds for SQL Server & Sybase, etc).

Ian
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-08-01 01:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrell wilkins
What would having Max on OS X bring to the platform? A great
application and
yet one more reason to to buy a windows box. Is it likely to happen? No
It has nothing to do with Mac OS X, but Autodesk obsession with Apple
-and in Max's case, of Gary Yost himself-. It's not going to happen,
even where they were at the latest WWDC.
Post by darrell wilkins
I don't really care about USB2 either, but I don't think it would do any
harm if we had it as standard.
Depends on what happens on the peripheral front. I don't see it taking
off yet, no?

j.
Alex Fuller
2002-08-01 01:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zachery Bir
Why the IE team won't just go with LiveConnect I don't know.
You're kidding, right? "Embrace-and-Extend"?
They used the Netscape plugin idea & <embed>... why not go the whole hog. I
only mean on the Mac, since ActiveX is apparently not an option.

Alex
Derek Chesterfield
2002-08-01 01:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
Post by Nick Zitzmann
For example, recently I watched "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone" on DVD. (Good movie, BTW.)
It's amazing what people call a good movie these days.
It is equally amazing how intolerant people can be about other people's
opinion. Men like women, women like men... so whose opinion is the
'correct' one?
j o a r
2002-08-01 01:27:37 UTC
Permalink
I missed a few.
Post by j o a r
On Tuesday, Jul 30, 2002, at 21:41 Europe/Stockholm, Erik J. Barzeski
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
1. games (we're still pretty far behind here)
2. USB 2 (not from Apple, anyway)
3. Good non-java peer-to-peer applications (We had the lead with
Hotline (not p2p, I know, but still...) a couple of years ago - what
happend?)
4. Marketshare (God, am I tired of having to explain my choice of OS)
5. Fast hardware (mainly CPU & memory subsystems - yes, we are _slow_)
6. A killer application (I mean a _real_ killer, like WYSIWYG desktop
publishing when the competition was still at the command line)
7. We miss the boot floppy. Last time I installed W2K it didn't just
accept the CD, I had to use a boot floppy - that made me feel like a
true power-geek! Yum!

8. We don't get to use our USB mice with PS2 adapters. All my PC
buddies use PS2 adapters, they tell me that they save USB ports in that
way. Damn Apple for forcing us to waste perfectly good USB ports on
mice! I wanted to use that port for my external USB HD!

9. We don't have a Start button. I have no idea how to find things
without my Start button. There's no Stop button either come to think of
it.

10. Our login panel is not protected by CTRL-ALT-DELETE. How can Apple
make such a fatal error? I'm not comfortable with starting my session
without a nice thorough CTRL-ALT-DELETE. I wish we got full
CTRL-ALT-DELETE support in Mac OS X, preferably before any action that
requires a password - like the Installer, Keychain, et.c.

j
Matthew Butch
2002-08-01 01:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by LuKreme
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
It has _nothing_ to do with people's opinions, though.
Give up now Jesús. The current crop of inane stupidity in the US,
instilled by the defective Duh-blic schools, is that EVERY opinion, no
matter how ill formed, uninformed, or downright psychotic, is somehow
equal and valid.
Agree with you there. My Solution: Privatize schools.
Post by LuKreme
Further proof of the inevitable demise of the American Empire.
Let's hope it comes sooner rather than later.

---

Matthew Butch

"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our
motto"-Thomas Jefferson, 1799

Free State Project "Liberty in Our Lifetime"
http://www.freestateproject.com

Sent with MacOS X's Mail 1.1(v482)
Todd R. Warfel
2002-08-01 01:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrell wilkins
1. Websites that are designed with only the windows platform in mind.
Is this a benefit?
Post by darrell wilkins
2. Cross plug-in communication in the browser.
- I believe this is in the latest Mozilla beta though.
??? Can you give an example?
Post by darrell wilkins
3. 3D Studio Max.
- I know we have Maya but it's not always a viable alterative. Most of
the
PCers in our office would convert to Mac's if 3D studio was on it.
4. Decent accounting packages.
- All the big ones are Windows only.
Quicken 2002, MyOB Accounting, Clients and Profits are all decent
accounting packages. I'm sure you're talking about something more
"enterprise level." Out of curiosity, what are they.
Post by darrell wilkins
5 Exchange server.
A bonus that we're not plagued with Exchange server. I've been on
Exchange several times in the past and it a few steps short of disaster.
It took a lot of baby sitting, was plagued with virus attacks, and both
times we ended up dumping it after implementation and 6 months+ of
useage. Exchange definitely has its place in the "business" world, but
there are plenty of better alternatives.

Shared calendars is the only thing we got w/Exchange that wasn't
available with other packages. However, at Cornell, we use Corporate
Time, which is a Web-based shared calendar app. It works well and is a
great alternative to Exchange.

Cheers!

Todd R. Warfel

_//message first [method second]
.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.
_//user experience guru
Information architecture
Interaction design
Usability analysis
[P] (607) 339-9640
[E] ***@mk27.com
[w] http://www.mk27.com
.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.==.--.
Cyril Niklaus
2002-08-01 01:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by LuKreme
Post by JHSJ
Americans are finally "catching up" with the Europeans on this issue,
I'm sure. It certainly isn't "our" invention.
I didn't say we INVENTED it. We just embraced it as our own while
everyone else in the world realised it was moronic to say "Well, Bruce
thinks Winger is the best music ever written and Mark think Mozart is
better, but Mark has to respect Bruce's opinion because it's just as
valid."
Find a non-American who thinks that Bruce's opinion is "valid."
Of course it's a valid opinion, and as such (ie, an opinion) has to be
respected. What the opinion expresses, however might be plain wrong
(I've never listened -- that I know of-- to Winger, so I can't say),
stupid etc etc. that does not change the fact that the opinion *as* an
opinion is to be respected. That's at the heart of the contradiction of
democracy: having to respect and not censure opinions that are opposed
to the democratic ideal[1].

And anyway, everyone knows the best music ever is by Electric Wizard. So
there.
Cyril
[1]But if I were to base myself on the virulence of your
position/discourse against spam, you might fit into such categories.
This had not stuck me before in your mails.
Kevin Callahan
2002-08-01 01:50:59 UTC
Permalink
Have you ever taken a look at GroupVille: http://www.groupville.com/
Loading Image...

Kevin
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
I wonder if anyone could build a central WebObjects application (or
whatever) and have iCal plug to it... I mean, it should be pretty much
straightforward, no? Or does anyone know if iCal Publish-n-subscribe is
one-way only?
I could imagine someone with their iCal multiple calendars, publishing
a "Public" calendar with everyone else in the company and then
accessing and having writing privileges to a "Group" calendar somewhere.
Of course, this is so simple that probably is not there yet. Or maybe
Apple is also planning to piggy-back all these new iApps into Mac OS X
Server 10.2.5 or something. It would certainly make a _lot_ of sense to
do so. You provide the iApps and the proApps to the client and then the
software on the servers to make those iApps and proApps even more
useful. Drive sells, integrated solution. Mucho money.
j.
Post by Todd R. Warfel
Post by Matt Penna
a) A good groupware server application akin to Exchange, along with
appropriate client software, would work wonders for the Mac in terms
of corporate adoption. Most places I've seen use Exchange server and
Outlook and I know of no real alternatives. (Anyone else know of
any?)
Corporate Time. There's both a Win and MacOS X client and the shared
calendars are Web-based.
_______________________________________________
MacOSX-talk mailing list
http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk
Ian Ragsdale
2002-08-01 02:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by j o a r
10. Our login panel is not protected by CTRL-ALT-DELETE. How can Apple
make such a fatal error? I'm not comfortable with starting my session
without a nice thorough CTRL-ALT-DELETE. I wish we got full
CTRL-ALT-DELETE support in Mac OS X, preferably before any action that
requires a password - like the Installer, Keychain, et.c.
Ctrl-Alt-Delete actually makes sense from a security perspective. On PCs it
actually generates an interrupt that only the OS can handle, so once you hit
that key combo you know you're getting a real OS prompt, instead of some
trojan program that the last user left on the screen to harvest passwords.

Ian
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-08-01 02:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by JHSJ
It certainly isn't "our" invention.
It's your corruption of the invention.

j.
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-08-01 02:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by LuKreme
¿See Jesús? I TOLD you.
Yeah. But then it doesn't matter, because no matter how much
"respectful" (the erroneous interpretation of respect) and "politically
correct" (the erroneous -american derived- interpretation of politics
and correctness), "Harry Potter" the movie and the books will still be
canned crap-o-la rehashed from other original past material with
near-zero creative value.

And that's about as far as I am going to get with this one.

j.
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-08-01 02:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by LuKreme
Give up now Jesús. The current crop of inane stupidity in the US,
instilled by the defective Duh-blic schools, is that EVERY opinion, no
matter how ill formed, uninformed, or downright psychotic, is somehow
equal and valid.
Yeah. Quite sickening, actually.
Post by LuKreme
Further proof of the inevitable demise of the American Empire.
We have that effect here in Europe too, and I guess that everywhere
else. Maybe is the inevitable demise of civilization as we know it.

I would like a ticket to hell, where they have bbq's and beer, and you
know all the words to the songs. [1]

j.

[1] David Byrne.
Scott Stevenson
2002-08-01 02:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by LuKreme
Video capture/ripping/encoding without a DV in is still pretty
privative on the Mac without spending LOTS of money.
How much is LOTS?

EyeTV is $199. Does this not do what you want?
<http://www.elgato.com/eyeTV/>

And then there's Hollywood Dazzle for $299:
<http://www.dazzle.com/products/hw_bridge.html>


I believe both let you create a VCD. I'm not familiar with this market,
though, so I don't know what these products would be lacking.

- Scott
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-08-01 02:33:54 UTC
Permalink
That's at the heart of the contradiction of democracy: having to
respect and not censure opinions that are opposed to the democratic
ideal[1].
So if someone says "Harry Potter is a good movie" and I say "It's
amazing what people call a good movie these days", we are all democratic
and all.

End of the story.

j.
Simon Kidd
2002-08-01 02:40:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
its Mac OS X provides? Let's keep the discussion to
10.2, if possible.
So, what can't/don't we (Macs and Mac Users) do?
1. games (we're still pretty far behind here)
2. USB 2 (not from Apple, anyway)
(Many of our former gaps are filled in, either from late third parties
(Palm) or Apple (USB printer sharing, wireless network sharing, etc.)).
dChip, BRB array Tools

I would not be surprised if most if not all the non-Java programs
listed for DNA array analysis here:

http://linkage.rockefeller.edu/wli/microarray/soft.html

are windows only.

Simon
Adrian Smith
2002-08-01 06:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Kidd
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
its Mac OS X provides? Let's keep the discussion to
10.2, if possible.
So, what can't/don't we (Macs and Mac Users) do?
1. games (we're still pretty far behind here)
2. USB 2 (not from Apple, anyway)
(Many of our former gaps are filled in, either from late third parties
(Palm) or Apple (USB printer sharing, wireless network sharing, etc.)).
dChip, BRB array Tools
I would not be surprised if most if not all the non-Java programs
http://linkage.rockefeller.edu/wli/microarray/soft.html
are windows only.
Simon
_______________________________________________
Well XCluster runs on Mac and I don't think it is Java.

http://www.apple.com/scitech/unixports/index.html

My impression is that OS X has made a big difference for this sort of
scientific software. In my area the Mac has been way out in front for
years.

Adrian

PS Our in-house bioinformatics advisor uses a Mac :)
Simon Kidd
2002-08-01 09:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adrian Smith
Post by Simon Kidd
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
its Mac OS X provides? Let's keep the discussion to
10.2, if possible.
So, what can't/don't we (Macs and Mac Users) do?
1. games (we're still pretty far behind here)
2. USB 2 (not from Apple, anyway)
(Many of our former gaps are filled in, either from late third parties
(Palm) or Apple (USB printer sharing, wireless network sharing, etc.)).
dChip, BRB array Tools
I would not be surprised if most if not all the non-Java programs
http://linkage.rockefeller.edu/wli/microarray/soft.html
are windows only.
Simon
_______________________________________________
Well XCluster runs on Mac and I don't think it is Java.
I knew there would be one I missed, thats why I said most. I actually
tried to get Xcluster, my fax seemed to vanish into thin air, I
should try again. I should point out that the program recommended to
view the output of XCluster, Treeview is PC only:

http://rana.lbl.gov/EisenSoftware.htm
Post by Adrian Smith
http://www.apple.com/scitech/unixports/index.html
My impression is that OS X has made a big difference for this sort
of scientific software. In my area the Mac has been way out in front
for years.
Adrian
PS Our in-house bioinformatics advisor uses a Mac :)
When I go to most seminars people use a mix of Macs and PC's to do
their Powerpoint presentations, however at seminars on microarray
technology everybody seems to use PC's. One company gave a seminar
about a server package (based on Linux running on a PC) for array
analysis, the data is accessed using a web browser so this part
should be platform independent, someone asked him if a Mac based
browser would work, apparently not, the browser is using some PC
specific functions, he suggested using VPC.

The problem is is that there are different ways on analysing the
data, for example dChip and affymtrix software given the same data
can give different results. Having access to different programs means
one can choose the program which fits your needs. This is easier on a
PC than a Mac.

Simon
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-08-01 02:43:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Butch
Post by LuKreme
Give up now Jesús. The current crop of inane stupidity in the US,
instilled by the defective Duh-blic schools, is that EVERY opinion, no
matter how ill formed, uninformed, or downright psychotic, is somehow
equal and valid.
Agree with you there. My Solution: Privatize schools.
Post by LuKreme
Further proof of the inevitable demise of the American Empire.
Let's hope it comes sooner rather than later.
Heh. Lewis, Mr.Butch is agreeing with you.

Ouch.

j.
darrell wilkins
2002-08-01 02:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd R. Warfel
Post by darrell wilkins
1. Websites that are designed with only the windows platform in mind.
Is this a benefit?
It's a disadvantage to Mac users.
Post by Todd R. Warfel
Post by darrell wilkins
2. Cross plug-in communication in the browser.
- I believe this is in the latest Mozilla beta though.
??? Can you give an example?
You can't script Flash and Shockwave plug-in's using JavaScript on IE on the
Mac. On Netscape you can use LiveConnect and on the PC you can use ActiveX.
Post by Todd R. Warfel
Post by darrell wilkins
4. Decent accounting packages.
- All the big ones are Windows only.
Quicken 2002, MyOB Accounting, Clients and Profits are all decent
accounting packages. I'm sure you're talking about something more
"enterprise level." Out of curiosity, what are they.
QuickBooks and Sage (which are small to medium sized packages) and then
anything up from there.
Post by Todd R. Warfel
Post by darrell wilkins
5 Exchange server.
A bonus that we're not plagued with Exchange server.
I never said that Exchange was good ;-)


cheers

darrell


- specialmoves

020 7278 7448
www.specialmoves.com
Angus Fox
2002-08-01 02:52:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd R. Warfel
Corporate Time. There's both a Win and MacOS X client and the shared
calendars are Web-based.
Cheers!
Todd R. Warfel
Even though its future under Oracle ownership is unknown?

A
Rik Ahlberg
2002-08-01 02:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
1 - Crashes
2 - Reboots
3 - Cheaply made, ugly hardware
4 - Servers that are as unreliable as desktops
5 - Vendors pointing fingers over why Windows X conflicts with Hardware
Y and the server won't boot, leaving the customer wishing he'd bought a
Mac.

Rik
Cyril Niklaus
2002-08-01 03:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesús Díaz Blanco
That's at the heart of the contradiction of democracy: having to
respect and not censure opinions that are opposed to the democratic
ideal[1].
So if someone says "Harry Potter is a good movie" and I say "It's
amazing what people call a good movie these days", we are all
democratic and all.
End of the story.
And everyone is nice, and shall be watching Teletubbies!
Yep. You've got the idea[1] right.

Cyril

[1]Now, it is left to the reader as an exercise to guess which idea it
is: am I talking about Harry Potter being rehashed, uninventive, badly
written books (as well as a blah movie when viewed in divx), or am I
talking about those lofty democratic ideals we should all strain to
uphold, even in the face of fascist thinkers (and that's tough)?
PS: for the follow-up, if any, nutters will do.
Chad Leigh -- ObjectWerks Inc.
2002-08-01 03:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by darrell wilkins
QuickBooks and Sage (which are small to medium sized packages) and then
anything up from there.
I don't know about Sage, but when I compared MYOB (in the US) to
Quickbooks, they were about the same. MYOB is pretty good for small
business accounting. But it has terrible performance on OS X. Me
thinks their carbon port from OS 9 was crappy... It appears that they
have not yet implemented the carbon events model

Chad
Elisabet Frazer
2002-08-01 05:45:01 UTC
Permalink
The web calendaring covers that aspect.
And how can the Windows users share *their* calendar? How can person B on
a Mac book something for person A on PC? Custombuilt WO apps doesn't
count.

in the groove
wondergirl.elisabet

"If you never had the bad times how would you know you had the good times"
Chris Devers
2002-08-01 06:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Ragsdale
If you can't wait that long, iODBC from http://www.iodbc.org/ is supposed
to
work under OS X, and there are open source drivers out there for a number
of
databases. (MyODBC for mysql, freetds for SQL Server & Sybase, etc).
Similarli-wise, unixodbc has been available through Fink for a while now.
Like
Cups, it wouldn't surprise me if the built in ODBC features in Jaguar are
just
a nice wrapper around already ported software...


--
Chris Devers
Chris Devers
2002-08-01 06:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by j o a r
7. We miss the boot floppy. Last time I installed W2K it didn't just
accept the CD, I had to use a boot floppy - that made me feel like a true
power-geek! Yum!
That's a hardware issue then, not W2K's fault. I installed W2k-pro a few
weeks ago and didn't have to futz around with floppy discs at all. Does
your hardware not support bootable cd's? That's more likely to be the
problem than the OS itself.
Post by j o a r
9. We don't have a Start button. I have no idea how to find things
without my Start button. There's no Stop button either come to think of
it.
I'll meet your dead horse & raise you another: three words, "one mouse
button".
Post by j o a r
10. Our login panel is not protected by CTRL-ALT-DELETE.
...nor is it on W2k or, I would assume, XP. This was a security measure to
keep out people with remote [VNC?] access to the machine, where it would
be difficult to transmit that key-chord. It's not necessarily the best
security idea Microsoft ever had -- surely they made wrong turns with
Outlook that more than make up for whatever this gained them -- but it
was a thoughtful design decision. Give 'em at least that much credit...
Post by j o a r
How can Apple make such a fatal error? I'm not comfortable with starting
my session without a nice thorough CTRL-ALT-DELETE. I wish we got full
CTRL-ALT-DELETE support in Mac OS X, preferably before any action that
requires a password - like the Installer, Keychain, et.c.
How does CMD+OPT+ESC for Force Quit grab ya? For that matter, how about
all the clever things you can with hidden keystrokes on a Mac ...if only
they were documented consistently.

OS advocacy gets so thought provoking some times, ya know? :)


--
Chris Devers
j o a r
2002-08-01 06:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Hello Mr. Microsoft-lover!
Post by Chris Devers
That's a hardware issue then, not W2K's fault. I installed W2k-pro a
few weeks ago and didn't have to futz around with floppy discs at all.
Does your hardware not support bootable cd's? That's more likely to be
the problem than the OS itself.
Well it actually does. The CD player claims to support booting (in the
BIOS), and it worked with the CD the first time I tried but failed to
complete the install since C: didn't have enough space. After a
repartition of the HD it would no longer boot from the CD. Go figure...
Only in Windows-land can things like that happen...
Post by Chris Devers
Post by j o a r
9. We don't have a Start button. I have no idea how to find things
without my Start button. There's no Stop button either come to think
of it.
I'll meet your dead horse & raise you another: three words, "one mouse
button".
You have only one? Strange, my have two + scroll wheel...
Post by Chris Devers
Post by j o a r
10. Our login panel is not protected by CTRL-ALT-DELETE.
...nor is it on W2k or, I would assume, XP.
You assume too much... My W2K is very seriously protected by
CTRL-ALT-DELETE.
Post by Chris Devers
Post by j o a r
How can Apple make such a fatal error? I'm not comfortable with
starting my session without a nice thorough CTRL-ALT-DELETE. I wish we
got full CTRL-ALT-DELETE support in Mac OS X, preferably before any
action that requires a password - like the Installer, Keychain, et.c.
How does CMD+OPT+ESC for Force Quit grab ya? For that matter, how about
all the clever things you can with hidden keystrokes on a Mac ...if
only they were documented consistently.
CTRL-ALT-DELETE for logging *in* to the computer? The "I need to kill
something"-key combination to log in? Delete to log in? The same key
combo to force quit apps? Makes sense? A key combination with ESC to
terminate / cancel some action / process must be more intuitive.

Don't put too much thought into my points 7 - 10, they were not that
serious. I know we have flaws in Mac OS X - but I'm not going to let
that stop me from teasing Windows users about theirs.

j o a r
j o a r
2002-08-01 06:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Hello Mr. Microsoft-lover!
Post by Chris Devers
That's a hardware issue then, not W2K's fault. I installed W2k-pro a
few weeks ago and didn't have to futz around with floppy discs at all.
Does your hardware not support bootable cd's? That's more likely to be
the problem than the OS itself.
Well it actually does. The CD player claims to support booting (in the
BIOS), and it worked with the CD the first time I tried but failed to
complete the install since C: didn't have enough space. After a
repartition of the HD it would no longer boot from the CD. Go figure...
Only in Windows-land can things like that happen...
Post by Chris Devers
Post by j o a r
9. We don't have a Start button. I have no idea how to find things
without my Start button. There's no Stop button either come to think
of it.
I'll meet your dead horse & raise you another: three words, "one mouse
button".
You have only one? Strange, my have two + scroll wheel...
Post by Chris Devers
Post by j o a r
10. Our login panel is not protected by CTRL-ALT-DELETE.
...nor is it on W2k or, I would assume, XP.
You assume too much... My W2K is very seriously protected by
CTRL-ALT-DELETE.
Post by Chris Devers
Post by j o a r
How can Apple make such a fatal error? I'm not comfortable with
starting my session without a nice thorough CTRL-ALT-DELETE. I wish we
got full CTRL-ALT-DELETE support in Mac OS X, preferably before any
action that requires a password - like the Installer, Keychain, et.c.
How does CMD+OPT+ESC for Force Quit grab ya? For that matter, how about
all the clever things you can with hidden keystrokes on a Mac ...if
only they were documented consistently.
CTRL-ALT-DELETE for logging *in* to the computer? The "I need to kill
something"-key combination to log in? Delete to log in? The same key
combo to force quit apps? Makes sense? A key combination with ESC to
terminate / cancel some action / process must be more intuitive.

Don't put too much thought into my points 7 - 10, they were not that
serious. I know we have flaws in Mac OS X - but I'm not going to let
that stop me from teasing Windows users about theirs.

j o a r
Chris Devers
2002-08-01 07:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by j o a r
Hello Mr. Microsoft-lover!
Well that's a new nickname for me :)
Post by j o a r
Post by Chris Devers
That's a hardware issue then, not W2K's fault.
Only in Windows-land can things like that happen...
*shrug*

You don't use Linux much, do ya?

In any case, this doesn't contradict me: I have personally done a W2k
install, recently, that did not involve me using a floppy disc in any way.
Hell, I wasn't even using a floppy *drive*. Maybe some hardware isn't as
forgiving, and I realize that Macs with no floppy drives can't even allow
this degenerate case, but still: you're painting this as a universal
failing of Windows, and it isn't. There are universal failings, but this
isn't one of them.
Post by j o a r
Post by Chris Devers
Post by j o a r
9. We don't have a Start button. I have no idea how to find things
without my Start button. There's no Stop button either come to think of
it.
I'll meet your dead horse & raise you another: three words, "one mouse
button".
You have only one? Strange, my have two + scroll wheel...
That's not what came with the Mac though, is it? The point is that the two
arguments -- "Start buttons are evil", "single buttoned mice are evil" --
are both just silly & pointless.
Post by j o a r
Post by Chris Devers
Post by j o a r
10. Our login panel is not protected by CTRL-ALT-DELETE.
...nor is it on W2k or, I would assume, XP.
You assume too much... My W2K is very seriously protected by
CTRL-ALT-DELETE.
This is an install time setting. If you didn't want it to work that way
you shouldn't have allowed it to do this to you.
Post by j o a r
Post by Chris Devers
Post by j o a r
How can Apple make such a fatal error? I'm not comfortable with
starting my session without a nice thorough CTRL-ALT-DELETE. I wish we
got full CTRL-ALT-DELETE support in Mac OS X, preferably before any
action that requires a password - like the Installer, Keychain, et.c.
How does CMD+OPT+ESC for Force Quit grab ya? For that matter, how about
all the clever things you can with hidden keystrokes on a Mac ...if only
they were documented consistently.
CTRL-ALT-DELETE for logging *in* to the computer?
Yes, lunkhead :). As I said and another commenter (Ian?) said, it is a
keychord that can only be produced at the OS level at the local console,
so it helps filter out trojans, certain remote exploits, etc. Maybe not an
optimal design decision, but it was put in for a good reason and, as noted
above [in two messages now], if you don't like it you could have set your
machine up not to force it on anything newer than NT4.
Post by j o a r
Don't put too much thought into my points 7 - 10, they were not that
serious. I know we have flaws in Mac OS X - but I'm not going to let that
stop me from teasing Windows users about theirs.
I'd say Windows has enough serious flaws that you don't need to get
distracted by the silly ones :)


--
Chris Devers
j o a r
2002-08-01 07:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Devers
Post by j o a r
Hello Mr. Microsoft-lover!
Well that's a new nickname for me :)
Smiley means happy. Good.
Post by Chris Devers
You don't use Linux much, do ya?
Why would I?
Post by Chris Devers
In any case, this doesn't contradict me: I have personally done a W2k
install, recently, that did not involve me using a floppy disc in any
way.
Hearsay... ;)

How many years ago did I last install any version of Mac OS using
floppies? I think it was Mac OS 7.5.5 and about 14 floppies [1]. Years
and years ago. A long time ago - get it? Now, we survived another shift
into a new millenia. It's way past 2000, I'm installing this great new
flashy OS from the worlds greatest software company - a company I assume
have "some" influence over the companies that manufacture the hardware
their OS is supposed to run on - and I have to use a floppy?!?

Is that not funny?
Post by Chris Devers
I'd say Windows has enough serious flaws that you don't need to get
distracted by the silly ones :)
Perhaps you didn't catch the tone of my email - it was actually supposed
to be silly rather than serious.

j o a r


[1] And even at that time I could have simply copied the contents of
these floppies + a system folder to a CD and installed from that.
Erik J. Barzeski
2002-08-01 07:57:01 UTC
Permalink
That's not in the spirit of the question.

People are going to go into Apple stores and say "can it do this?" and if it
can't, that's a drawback.

You listed advantages - ones we're all well aware of. :P
Post by Rik Ahlberg
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
1 - Crashes
2 - Reboots
3 - Cheaply made, ugly hardware
4 - Servers that are as unreliable as desktops
5 - Vendors pointing fingers over why Windows X conflicts with Hardware
Y and the server won't boot, leaving the customer wishing he'd bought a
Mac.
Rik
_______________________________________________
MacOSX-talk mailing list
http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-talk
--
Kindest regards,
Erik J. Barzeski

If nobody's going to RTFM why WTFM?
###################################################################
Email: erik@(anything below) AIM: iacas

http://iacas.org http://weims.net
http://techstra.net http://barzeski.com
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http://freshlysqueezedsoftware.com http://applescriptcentral.com
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Matt
2002-08-01 09:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd R. Warfel
Post by darrell wilkins
4. Decent accounting packages.
- All the big ones are Windows only.
Quicken 2002, MyOB Accounting, Clients and Profits are all decent
accounting packages. I'm sure you're talking about something more
"enterprise level." Out of curiosity, what are they.
Sage. Astra.
Post by Todd R. Warfel
Post by darrell wilkins
5 Exchange server.
A bonus that we're not plagued with Exchange server. I've been on
Exchange several times in the past and it a few steps short of
disaster. It took a lot of baby sitting, was plagued with virus
attacks, and both times we ended up dumping it after implementation and
6 months+ of useage. Exchange definitely has its place in the
"business" world, but there are plenty of better alternatives.
Todd, don't you think we all know that? Don't you think that if we had a
choice we'd not use Exchange or Visio or Access? This isn't about using
these things because we want to but rather using them because we HAVE to.
Post by Todd R. Warfel
Shared calendars is the only thing we got w/Exchange that wasn't
available with other packages. However, at Cornell, we use Corporate
Time, which is a Web-based shared calendar app. It works well and is a
great alternative to Exchange.
Must tell the corporation that. Maybe they'll switch their 300+ Exchange
servers.

M
Matt
2002-08-01 09:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by LuKreme
Further proof of the inevitable demise of the American Empire.
We have a takeover scheduled for 3 weeks on Tuesday.

Matt
Chief Architect for the Irish Empire.

(Heck, the Irish already outnumber y'all. Just go peaceable-like)
Chris Devers
2002-08-01 10:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt
Post by LuKreme
Further proof of the inevitable demise of the American Empire.
We have a takeover scheduled for 3 weeks on Tuesday.
Sorry, we've got a meeting scheduled for that day. Are you perhaps going
to be open on the Monday after that? I see a two hour home on my calendar
here where I *think* we could squeeze something in. RSVP.
--
Chris Devers
Michael Bryan Bell
2002-08-01 13:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Penna
However, having said that, I would also say that for at *least* 75% of the
population, this is not relevant. When all you do is browse web sites, use
e-mail and type letters, does it matter whether you have a 1GHz as opposed to
a 2.5GHz processor?
Actually it is very relevant. Macs have fallen so far behind the performance
curve that it means what apple is selling now in some cases won't be optimal
for the software they ship a month after they sell it new.

Because performance is so low, it cripples software sales and what can be
done on the platform, and means new technologies (games, anything) will
receive much slower adoption than it otherwise would, which is a big
deterrent to developers.

Your brand new $2000 iMac can barely play the games of today, let alone the
games of the next few months. Just look at something like quartz extreme
(god that¹s a stupid name, btw)- apple is so far behind in terms of
performance that if I bought almost all the ibook line won't even use it
whereas a PC of similar spec at the time you bought it could.

Hell, just try playing itunes in the background while you're doing a file
copy or anything mildly intensive- crappy playback. If the components were
up to snuff, it wouldn't be an issue.


Michael Bryan Bell
------------------
ICQ: 16106263 Yahoo: mhbell1
No Link for you! AIM: drunkenbatman
Michael Bryan Bell
2002-08-01 13:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
Post by jason.kamen
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
What does Windows have that we lack?
Ability to set a "standard".
USB?
Intel standard- it was coming on the PC side, apple just gave it a catalyst
to get some products out there.
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
802.11b?
Apple had nothing to do with this. Look inside your base station, and you'll
see an orinco card. Apple did help popularize it on the desktop.
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
Firewire?
True, this is a standard apple developed. But I wouldn't call it "popular"
except on the mac side and anyone dealing with digital video.
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
QuickTime?
Quicktime isn't a standard- its a product apple ships that has an ok
marketshare. MPG4 or MP3 are standards, which quicktime and real and WMP can
all use if they want. But considering most of the content I run into on the
web isn't in .mov format, I'd be hard pressed to say its the standard.
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
ZeroConf.
Apple didn't create this, its an open source solution that already exists.
Admittedly the guy who created it does work at apple, but considering just a
few printer makers have expressed support and it hasn't been tested by the
market... Hard to say apple made it a standard.
Post by Erik J. Barzeski
Etc. I disagree here. The other answers people have given are all pretty
good so far...
MS has an incredible ability to create standards- they have that much power.
Take zero-conf. If MS decides to incorporate it into the OS, chances are
that will become defacto standard. If they decide they don't like it and
make their own standard, chances are zerconf will be relegated to the mac
world.

Or HTML- back in the day, netscape could add extensions and create
standards. Now, MS can.


Michael Bryan Bell
------------------
ICQ: 16106263 Yahoo: mhbell1
No Link for you! AIM: drunkenbatman
Matt
2002-08-01 15:31:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Devers
Post by Matt
Post by LuKreme
Further proof of the inevitable demise of the American Empire.
We have a takeover scheduled for 3 weeks on Tuesday.
Sorry, we've got a meeting scheduled for that day. Are you perhaps going
to be open on the Monday after that? I see a two hour home on my
calendar
here where I *think* we could squeeze something in. RSVP.
I'm not sure but I think we have Japan on that Monday.

We'll never get this scheduled.

IF ONLY there was a cross platform scheduling solution that would work
across the Internet.

Damn....
Jesús Díaz Blanco
2002-08-01 16:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Bryan Bell
Actually it is very relevant. Macs have fallen so far behind the
performance
curve that it means what apple is selling now in some cases won't be
optimal
for the software they ship a month after they sell it new.
Are you on crack? Are you kidding us? Because with statements like
that, you are this > < close to enter The Magic Kingdom of Junk Mail.

Could you please POINT to any real facts? Because really, wanton
speculation and mental masturbation doesn't cut it around here, even
when Xah is still subscribed.

j.

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